Read more about this project..

Brief

To develop a synthetic belay jacket which is compatible with UK weather and UK climbing.

If you are reading this then I am hoping that you have some interest in helping us develop a belay jacket rather just trying to get a piece of equipment on the cheap! So before I start rambling on it would be good for you to have a quick read of the following articles. 

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/site/main_articles/the_belay_jacket/

and

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1375

Both are really good articles that explain where we need to get to in order to make a really good belay jacket.  In order to kick this off we have made 200 jackets to give you something to muse over and have an opinion on.

So whats this coLAB stuff all about anyway?
Let’s say a car company rang you up and asked for you thoughts on a new car they were about to design. Chances are you would say you wanted doors, steering wheel and windscreen. But let’s say they gave you their latest design and asked your opinion on that.. you might say the steering was too heavy or the rear load space to narrow.  So this is what we have done, we have made 200 working prototypes that will give you something to mess around with and give us some feedback. We have also thrown in some little extras such as replacement zip pullers and little cord grips to see what difference they make, little cord grips dont poke you in the face so much, but are you able to adjust them when the weather gets gnarly?

So the basic aim is to get 200 jackets in the field and get feedback on them. Our part of the deal is selling them to you cheap, your part of the deal is to come back on to the forum and tell us what you think good or bad.

The price is £45 and if I steal Andy Kirkpatrick’s belay jacket checklist then we can cover some of the important points. (Andy is currently on El Capitan with Phil Packer of Help for Heroes Fame June 09, so I’m sure he won’t mind) 

Lightwieght -The weight is sub 600g, we are very happy with that but maybe it is too lightwieght

Low Bulk - It squishes to be about the same size as a 1kg bag of flour

High Loft - Not sure how to measure that and compare it to others. My gut feeling is that it may need a little more puff

Robust Insulation - We are using a non branded insulation which we have been hugely impressed with in our test jackets and sleeping bags. Do we need to consider a branded alternative and pay the higher price. We may not have a choice as both Pertex and Event won’t supply us, this may be the case with Primaloft we will have to ask them I guess

Windproof - Air Permability is 0.1-1.0cc/sec/cm2 so it’s as good as

Features - 3 pockets and hood, that’s about it, but is it enough?

Inexpensive - £45 for the coLAB model and £60 (projected) for the final model

That covers the basics, and the jacket should go on sale by the end of the week.

Read more about the project..

Cheers, and looking forward to your feedback.

Nick

Re the quote on your front page.  http://www.alpkit.com/colab/projects/0hiro/

‘At 0 degrees, water gets so cold it turns to ice, and ice gets so warm it turns to water??’

Surely it’s not scientifically possible for it to being doing both these things at the same time…

Nice looking jackets but maybe some more subtle colours would be good too.

Hi,

what is the insulation made of? Primaloft?

I wonder for the non climbers, including me, what is a belay jacket? What does this jacket actually allow the user to do that others don’t? So far from the brief it seems just like an over jacket. Other aspects that at least seem a little unclear is the water resistance, weight etc? Or perhaps I’m just a little slow today.. :D

Oh zero degrees is the melting point of ice, and anything below is freezing point of water as far as I can recall from my school days - but that was a looong time ago..

Straight away I would suggest putting two large net pockets with and elasticated top on the inside of the jacket as Patagonia do on some of their belay style jackets. It adds minimal weight and minimal extra production costs but is very useful. Even a simple square shaped pocket allows a big gloved hand easy access, and an elasticated top keeps everything in place simply. For those who have seperate climbing and belay gloves it’s a must. Even if you were never to use them, because they lie flat against the inside of the jacket only the most hardcore fast and light freaks would even consider cutting them out.

Also while the double zipper puller is useful in that it allows you to keep an eye on your belay device, unless the cut is just right for you it is more trouble than it’s worth. The opening only needs to be very small to be effective. So opening the jacket up the middle by 10cm (and by extension creating a wider hole around the bottom of the jacket) to allow a 2cm wide belay loop to poke through seems silly. If hem elastics are used then the jacket can ride up (as looks could happen in picture 5), also the opening can catch the wind and flap around or can just cause you to lose valuable warmth. Even a simple press stud, over-sized glove friendly button-and-loop or even third zipper puller would help enormously.

Just some thoughts.

infinitybeach - 12 June 2009 01:26 PM

Re the quote on your front page.  http://www.alpkit.com/colab/projects/0hiro/

‘At 0 degrees, water gets so cold it turns to ice, and ice gets so warm it turns to water??’

Surely it’s not scientifically possible for it to being doing both these things at the same time…

Nice looking jackets but maybe some more subtle colours would be good too.

This is actually possible- the processes of melting and freezing are phase transitions (first order iirc) and so at 0 degrees C water freezes but ice melts (assuming both of these are pure H2O (solutes alter the melting point)

On topic the jacket looks nice- my first instinct is it would be nice if they were more waterproof. Its a shame eVent won’t do business with you as a company who is fighting to carve out a stake of its marketplace you’d hope they would be more supportive of small brands such as yourself

Things that I’d like to get right if I were designing my own belay jacket

(I’ve not had a chance to read all the posts yet, meant to be getting ready for a meeting - boo. Will try and do so after the weekend)

- Has to have a hood (obviously), that goes over your helmet and preferably one that moves well when it’s on.
- Warm when it’s wet.
- Should be pretty damn waterproof on the *inside*, as your climbing jacket is likely to be wet when you put it on.
- Somewhere to stash extra gloves(+hat?) so I can get them off for when I start climbing again, but have them ready next time I hit the belay, without having to root around in my pack. I have a Patagonia synthetic puffy thing that has big mesh elasticated pockets on the inside which are great for this.
- Bright. If you’re stuck out in a white out in Scotland and need a rescue you’re going to have your belay jacket on. Make it bright!
- Baggy, for putting over the rest of your gear.
- Warm. I’d rather it was a couple hundred grams heavier and warmer personally. It’s not nice sitting on a snowy belay for 2 hours and getting frozen! That said, you’re unlikely to be climbing in it, so don’t waste time putting super tough fabric on it.

I don’t care too much about the fit or the location of handwarmer pockets - it’s going over your harness so it doesn’t have to work with it like a shell would do.

Hope that helps!

Tom

... oh, and big chunky zip pulls too

Some great ideas already

Just to answer some of the questions
Insulation - Not Primaloft it’s as per the description in the original post.

Internal pockts - I know exactly what your after.
Zipper - I will look into this.
Warm when wet - To quote Patagonia from there “cleanest line” website, jacuzzis are warm when wet, nothing else is. But i understand what your getting at.
Insulation - Noted you might need more of it.

I am still going to have in the back of my mind that we have to keep it simple. At the moments it’s light, i really dont want to load it up to much and make it heavy

I forgot to say nice one to Phil and Andy for getting up El Cap.

http://www.philpacker.com/

Cheers

Nick

Awesome, I’ve been waiting for the º0hiro for months now. It may be the biggest issue is finding weather to test it in before the product roll out (I’m in Svalbard later this year but maybe too late) I’m looking forward to trying it out anyhow!

Great idea, I almost instantly ordered one
But maybe first some quick thoughts…

I fully agree on the bonus of inside pockets.
Since it’s going to be a belay jackets, maybe add a small loop-hole so you can clip it somewhere into your anchor?
And if you’re in that tight spot on the wall waiting for rescue, you could clip a light into that same loop. It should therefore be on the back of the jacket, somewhere around the back of the collar?

Same idea for the sleeves: maybe you can add a small loop at the (inside?) collars of the sleeves, where I can attach my gloves.

I’m really enthousiastic about this, hope it helps!

Cheers,
Leon

nice idea

as a avid user of a montane toasty and prism insulation jackets

a few comments in relation to each of these items

toasty: Very warm but heavy i have worn it as intended as an over jacket when you stop or around campsites i have even slept init one one very cold trip and even when soaked through iv’e been very happy with the insulation it provided in very cold weather camping with dofe groups. DWR not very important sinces it’s not a shell jacket windproofness more important and i like my jackets to smell nice and not of sheep shit etc so it gets washed lots. big ask is please don’t have any pocket zip closers from the bottom to the top or through the insulation; every time you open the pockets you let the heat out.

prism: very light but not warm enough to stand about in ok when moving and as under layer. again DWR not important windproofness more so.

i was going for a montane puma next as the summer compromise on the toasty but if your jackets comes close to that spec you get my money.

comments on new jacket

don’t bother with belay zip my jackets work fine with out them. hood looks really bulky (not good) lighter insulation or just just made of the shell material would be better iv’e usually got a shell jacket under my toasty when standing about and it’s hood works fine in winter. can’t walk very far with the toasty on; you just melt.

motane suits me as i like the long body cut they use. can you put back measurements on clothing to help freaks like me.

good work though and nice idea so far.

gav

opps forgot your pockets are too low i like the montane chest level ones ideal with a backpack on; low ones just get covered by pack belts and water runs down your arms and into pockets.

Weather - Your right about not really having the weather to test but im confident that with enough people input we can nail the design.

One element of the design that im pondering is the need for it to be both a task specific jacket for climbing and for it have slightly broader appeal. Next weekend we have team entering the mountain mayhem, and a few racers have already commented that that this could be a perfect race (warm up / cool down) jacket. So lets say we move the pockets up, does that make it less appealing to more people or is there happy point somewhere in the middle.

A few people asked about the weight of the fill, well the factory give the name of the filling as downloft, a few other companies have then rebranded this with fancy name, we haven’t been so clever yet. What i can say is that it is 150gm/2 and sewn in using shingle construction.

Zips etc will look into this,anyone else with an opinion.

Measurements - there on the shop page

Cheers

Nick

Zippered Pockets -

Hi I’ve just ordered this jacket. It came today. I ordered a Medium I’m a size 38’‘/40’’ female. I found the jacket too tight in the bust and hips. I considered getting the next size but the cut is too straight and long. I think this jacket is more suited to the male shape. I hope you consider designing a belay coat cut for women in the future. Trish